Thursday, June 01, 2006

Responding to Em..

My Dear Em,

Well this wont fit in the comment box so...…

Please forgive me for not responding to your comment sooner I wanted to give you the time you deserve and only respond after much prayer, and no, I do not mind a good devils advocate. Dialog is healthy espescially when we respect one another our boundaries and our differences. I was saddened to hear of your grandmother's death yet relieved that she is no longer in pain and that the burden your mother (and your whole family) has endured for so long has been lifted.

I too believe God's desire is for "Thy (His) will to be done on earth as it is in heaven" therefore, when people limit God by saying He only heals one certain way, or only in heaven, or that the miracles and gifts of biblical times no longer exist I remind them of that verse and a few others. I believe God's will in heaven according to His word is for total healing lack of stress and strife and the fulfillment of our lives with Him.

Therefore we should be able to experience a mirror of this in our world today shouldn't we? If Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever (as scripture states) I believe this would be true. It seams that our civilized culture has anesthetizes us from a truly Holy and Sacred experience with God. That experience began in the garden and continued throughout biblical history with the prophets and became full with the birth of the living Messiah.

I have become terribly frustrated at the lack of belief in our culture ~ I believe underdeveloped countries like Africa have something we in the west cannot seem to hold onto. The faith of believers in some villages is so strong that miracles occur daily allowing the lame walk, blind to see, deaf to hear and the dead are occasionally even raised! Since my mother and I have both experienced supernatural healings and I know many others that have as well, I suppose, it sounds lame for me to say this? Unfortunately, I know more people who have been consumed by disease then healed of it.


I personally believe our modern culture to be a huge inhibitor, we are so rational, so scientific, and heck God is the father of science and rational thinking so I am not saying its wrong just out of balance. I could bring up the other side of the coin my other big frustration, Christians throwing out their God given intellect by letting emotional experience rule them with absolutely no rational thought or ideas in sight!

Ok sorry for the rabbit trail (I do have a purpose- really;) getting back to the subject at hand I believe grief to be a healthy emotion I am not sure if it does or doesn't fit into the "On earth as it is in heaven" scripture because grief is a natural God given emotion we need to experience to be healthy. Have your read The Final Quest by Rick joiner ~ I highly recommend it! (Link above) I have never heard an eternal perspective of feelings emotions realities etc, so eloquently stated as in The Final Quest.

I want to clarify what I meant by grief in my journal entry about my Dad. I think of my father (and Jane ~ Jim's mom) almost daily (ok, daily :) I feel a significant place they filled in my life is missing. It does not mean God cannot fill this place here on earth, I believe He has. It means that I remember them, I notice there absence, I do not wallow in tears. Although, occasionally I am touched by a memory or reminded of them I think that its a healthy thing to do. So many people wont even talk about a loved one after their passing it's like they never existed. I want to honor the lives of those I have loved and now miss and there are many. I would like to point out again this does not mean despair just a noticeable absence.

I was reminded of the following passage in John.

John 11: 32 When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died."33 When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34"Where have you laid him?" he asked. "Come and see, Lord," they replied.35 Jesus wept.36 Then the Jews said, "See how he loved him!"

Did Jesus weep because of their unbelief, or did he weep because Mary and all the others were grieving and it hurt Him to see their pain? If Grief is a natural emotion just as love and anger are. We need to express these emotions, to cleanse ourselves emotionally, spiritually, and physicaly by dealing with them rather then suppressing them. The empty space left by a loved one's passing is always noticeable, but grief does change over time. The grief I felt upon my father's death and Jane's death is not the same today as it was initially. I hope I am making some sort of since to you.

I read someplace that scientist had discovered that when tears are released toxic chemicals are purged from the body. They also found that people who don't deal well with their emotions-those who suppress them have more chronic diseases. This is one of the key things dealt with in MEW the physiological (scientifically verified) responses in the body as a result of issues that have not been properly dealt with. This does in NO WAY mean I belive all illnesses are a result of lack of dealing with emotions and so on, genetic predisposition, enviornment and other factors can all come into play.

When we find the root (many emotional & spiritual) and address them, we are cleansed emotionally, spiritualy and physicaly as a response we give God authority in our life to bring healing, the symptoms and the disease is reversed and we are healed. I don't have answers, I dont have it all figured out in my life but I have been Endo and IBS symptom free for over a year and thank God daily. I know I have a long way to go more healing is coming as I allow God to pull off the layers and go deeper into my life.

MEW is great and my understandings of the theory behind the teachings do not do it justice besides it's not a formula it's not fool proof (Gods not into formulas from my point of view) there are many ways He chooses to heal and there is the obvious "a time to live and a time to die" that must be factored in. I don't believe that God has limits or expect Him to mold Himself to my beliefs (which is so noticeably a trend throughout history) most want a God but on our own terms. Few want to let Him be who He is, we want to make Him into something we are comfortable with, mold Him into our image our ways of thinking ~ not the reverse.

Ok, I know your asking what on earth does this rabbit trail have to do with Grief well if I suppress my feelings (which I have done most my life) and don't deal with my emotions and grief I may allow toxins to build up in my body that could cause disease. I am not saying we need to lose control of our emotions just that we need to find a safe and healthy way to express them. My failure to do this has literally caused me great pain and suffering. After much reflection over the last several years I see how I inadvertently caused my body and spirit more harm. I stuffed everything down about my dad's death for years along with other things then when I returned home I relived all the pain and then some and was faced with the realities of the effects of suppressing thise emotions.

Btw I am exited you may be going to the MEW conference it could change your life and bring you new freedom and understanding. I also want to point out that MEW focuses on many aspects blocks to healing the least of which is unresolved emotions.

Finely, I wanted to respond to your concerns about your grandmother's final destination. I was grieved for you when you expressed your hurt in not knowing if she had committed her heart to Christ. I too believe in hell I believe it is biblically the separation from Christ a choosing we make not God. As I see it from my weak understanding of scripture (and contrary to folk lore) nowhere in God's word does it indicate His desire for anyone to be separated from Him.
The bible states repeatedly a message of love and unity that God through Christ desires with us.

I do not know if hell is a literal fiery eternity or not? it may NOT be a metaphor as so many belive but a real place where fire is eternal. For me the thought of being separate from The One who loves me, accepts me, and died for me grieves me far more then the thought of burning eternally. No matter what Hell truly is I do not think The Lover of our soul would want us to focus on that realm but on Him and the Love He has for ALL His children and the Grace He extends to everyone.

One thing I have learned is to not over analyze the salvation (relationship with God) of others. We are responsible for our own salvation and cannot judge another's soul. I believe this is especially important to remember when it involves a loved one. It will do us absolutely no good whatsoever to judge the heart of a loved one, we cannot truly know their hearts only God does. Who can know what another's relationship with God is truly like, who knows the last minutes of your grandmother's life or perhaps the quiet faith she had during her lifetime?

Well I think I am finished rambling, I just want to point out that even with all the above mentioned opinions I know nothing! I am on a quest same as you for truth, for understanding, for a life of completion with Christ. Hope this has made since and that I have not confused you further.


I pray all things said in this post that are absolute nonsense will drift away like sand and that anything valid will engrave itself on our hearts.

I am praying ~ miss you!

18 comments:

Anonymous said...

Vir--

Thanks for your thoughts! I read an excellent book (what, me, read?! LOL! No way!!) by John Bevere recently called "Driven by Eternity" and it talks all about heaven and hell and how the decisions we make now will effect how we live in eternity. He speaks of the very REAL FIERY hell.. not just figuratively. I mean, read Revelation and how in the end, satan is cast into hell, and the lake of fire and all that. There is a real satan prowling around in this earth and a real hell where he lives. I have heard Christians speak at VCC about near death experiences where they were taken to hell and the blood curdling sreams...

So, on one hand, I know I am not responsible for my grandma's salvation, but on the other hand, in his book, John talks about how we will be rewarded based on if we have shared JC with others and their responses as well. Granted, only God can save someone, I do not do that. But, have I taken the time to tell someone about JC or have I chickened out out of fear of what they might think of me if they know I am a Christian? In this sense, if I do not share, am I a mere "closet Christian?"

Anonymous said...

So, for me, I believe 100% that there is a real place called hell where people who do not accept Christ will one day be. (no purgatory or in between state) So, I believe, if my gma is not in heaven, she is in hell, and that is what saddens me. It is my belief however. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I respect that, but from what I have read in Revelation and the bible and JB and his books, I belive it is a real place that is really fire and the like... and I tell my gma, "Go, do not suffer anymore.. and then I think, "is she suffering in hell now?" Now again, you or someone else may read that and say "but there is no firey hell..." regardless, if we believe someone who does not believe in God is not with God, then yes, they are NOT WITH GOD, absent from Him, so this is tragic is it not? I mean, sepearation from God is not a good thing. So, those are my beliefs and that is why I feel as I do. Anyone who has that belief would prob. feel the same, not wanting their loved one to burn forever in hell. Some people may read this and think boy are her beliefs harsh, but I am only going on what I have read in books, the bible and from pastors/teachers. And JB says too many churchs shy away from teaching about hell and only want to teach the rosy side of Christianity... and here we have people as ticking time bombs... one day ready to explode and either go up or down... many walk this earth in blindness, thinking they are saved or okay or right with God, when they have no relationship with Him...

Anonymous said...

I am not downplaying crying (nor saying you said I was) just clarifying for peeps... crying is good and I do it often... well a good amt... and when someone dies, again, there will be pain or grief, but how long does it last? Years and years we are crying over someone?

Anonymous said...

But, then as I said in the other comment, I believe in hell so if someone is not in heaven, that is where I believe them to be, so then I guess for me, it is kind of hard not to feel sadness or grief over the fact that that person may be forever sufferng in hell. I mean, the bible even says Jesus went to hell for us! Before He ascended to heaven, it says he DESCENDED!! I heard JB say once about that about JC going to hell after His death or something, for us... He went there so we would not. I forget where in scripture, pardon me, but it is there.

But what you say about MEW is awesome and true, and good to cry and get out the toxins and all... never read the Final Quest but heard it is good. =D Thanks for the link... appreciate that.

vir said...

Hey Em,

I am going to tackle all your comments one at a time on seperate comments and also post a blog entry about how I grew up in the church. I have not read the book you mentioned it must be new as I have read almost all John and Lisa Bevere’s books.

In regard to Hell I in know way meant to give you the opinion that I don't believe in one I DO but if we were to set up a group of theologians they could each take a Greek and Hebrew bible and give argument for many different perspectives on hell. Like annihilation by fire, eternity of fire, metaphorical fire etc ~ I have heard the arguments. And they are just as confusing as all the tribulation arguments about prophecy of Jesus return in other words I know people who are Pre Trib, Mid Trib, Post Trib, and amillenialists and probably a few more I am not even aware of.

All I am saying is I just really don't know what hell is, none of can really know and I pray I never find out, who wants to take that trip to prove a point! Many people Christian and those of other faiths and no faith at all do not believe hell is a literal fire or believe in annihilation. I learned along time ago arguing with people with other beliefs and trying to change their minds just doesn't work and in some cases makes things a whole lot worse. In an attempt to clarify a few things I will need to do a little more research (my memory is fuzzy) I will look for the passages to support the few things I do know. I trust you (or anyone else) will not take anything I say for truth without scripture to back it up. Personally I believe no matter who the opinion is from a book, a comment from a friend, a blog etc our final authority is the word of God EVERYTHING should be tested.

Things I know I believe about Satan and hell.

Satan formally named Lucifer was an angel in Ezekiel 28:15 we are told Satan was created blameless until iniquity was found in him

Other scriptures state he WAS beautiful and a worshiper but somewhere along the way he became prideful and jealous of God. Using his free will he sinned against God gathered followers ~ other rebellious angels. As a consequence to his actions God cast Satan and 1/3 of the angels (Satan followers) out of heaven as s a result of their rebellion Satan and his followers became captive to sin and death.

John 8:44 states Satan is the father of lies and a murderer.

Hell was created for Satan and his followers the fallen angels (demons) and those on earth who reject Christ.

Hell is a destination of those choosing not to have a relationship with Christ a choice we make with our free will. In other words God does not send people to hell but if there are only two sides and you don't pick God's, Satan's is the only side left.

Hell is the separation from Christ I am reminded of an old movie when I think of this Lady Hawk (wimpy analogy but bare with;) the characters in the movie are in love but cursed to never see each other except for a glimpse at dawn stretching out to touch each other but never getting close enough to actually do it.

To die without Christ and realize God is who He said He is you would learn that the most significant love relationship you could ever have is lost to you, you cannot touch, you cannot experience His love for you, His eternal plan for you, you cannot live in harmony and completeness with Him and be unified with loved ones and other followers of Christ. You are alone eternally with or without the pain of hell fire it's just not a cool gig! ~ I cannot imagine that kind of torment.

Contrary to folklore that says “well if I go to hell at least I won’t be alone or ill be in good company" and so on. I believe scripture teaches hell is a place of total separation not only from God but from everyone.

So, there you have a few of my views on scripture I admit I am probably wrong about a few things as I have not made the topic of hell a priority in my life but would rather focus on how to live my life as Christ so that I can be a light to others who are looking to fill the empty place in their soul only God can fill.

I too believe I have wimped out of on sharing my faith when opportunity has risen fear lack of confidence all have played a factor.

But personally I don’t agree with many Christians approach to evangelism I’m not really into handing out tracks even though I was forced to at the small bible school I went to, it just didn’t seem right to me. If you look at scripture you will see Jesus was eternally focused not on hell but on the new life He was extending to us. Jesus traveled taught and met people along the way lived in community and built relationships. That’s what I believe in, life style evangelism thankfully, I know it works and as a result have lead several to Christ as they have said to me “I want what you have”

At that point I have to keep myself from being cynical and not say “you want what I have my life is so darn screwed up with constant tragedy and chaos.”

Thankfully I know better and I keep my mouth shut because what they are truly asking for is the relationship I have with Christ.
They see me struggle and fall they see the weight of trials that would make most end up in a hospital or the very least be highly medicated and say how and I respond Jesus He gives me the strength when I am crumbling to keep going to laugh to cry through the pain and a hope that because He is in charge everything will work out in the end ~ He fills me with peace and love unimaginable when I allow Him

In regard to rewards I believe we are rewarded according to scripture for many things not just leading someone to Christ (I hope I have a few waiting) I personally think it is dangerous ground to serve God based on potential rewards and I have seen people do it. It is better to serve Him from the heart and I believe that is what you do.

Em, there are few people I have met who have your passion for God for being obedient and serving Him I know He uses you and will continue to draw you deeper in relationship with Him.

I will write more later if you can put up with it. :)

Anonymous said...

I agree with what you said. I try not and focus on hell solely. I know it is not all about hell. What I am saying though (and I know you prob. know this) is that a lot of churches do not even mention hell or teach about it. Now, not that we are to be like "believe JC so you can get out of hell... fire insurance type deal I have heard. We need to be teaching the reason for having Jesus in our life, not just to get out of hell, but it is about a relationship... more in a sec...

Anonymous said...

I agree with what you said. I try not and focus on hell solely. I know it is not all about hell. What I am saying though (and I know you prob. know this) is that a lot of churches do not even mention hell or teach about it. Now, not that we are to be like "believe JC so you can get out of hell... fire insurance type deal I have heard. We need to be teaching the reason for having Jesus in our life, not just to get out of hell, but it is about a relationship... more in a sec...

But so many people are not teaching others about hell. My mom for instance thinks she is going to heaven simply b/c she is basically a good person. (morally) However, someone who wronged me in the past, she thinks they are evil and going to hell when they may have changed and given their lives to JC. She does not have spiritual understanding or insight right now, so trying to explain this stuff to her is pointless.

I agree with you that we need to weigh everything with scripture. Right on! However, I also believe JB is a strong man of God who hears straight from the Lord. (not that you don’t) He says on his videos that God told him he was to write, and that everything he writes, he can boast in, b/c it is the Lord who gives John the words to say, JB is merely the one to type it out. So, he is not just “well, I think this or that…” but what he says, it is what God is saying. I have learned so much and grown from JB. So, when I read about heaven and hell in his books, I do believe what he is saying b/c of his hearing the Lord and sometimes even he will go back to scripture just to make sure it is God.

But I am not saying what you believe is wrong. We are all entitled to our beliefs. I am not all-knowing as well. But again, I do tend to believe what JB says. But all men/women are fallable, so could he have heard wrong at some pt? Sure, we all have the ability to do so and none of us are perfect. I am not saying what I am saying all the time is 100% correct. But again, I do regard JB as a man of faith I look up to.

As for the evangelism, I agree that the track system stuff is not the best. I am not one to stand on the corner handing those out. I just mean the casual talking about JC in my own life. I mean what if someone asks me, “what did ya do this weekend?” Well, I went to church and a bible study, did worship… yet I am ashamed or scared to tell them that so I just say “awww, not much, went to dinner, watched a movie…” (which I did do, but I also did the church, bible study etc) Now, what if I had shared about the church or bible study etc. and that caused them to inquire more about that?? What if that lead to even more chats later??? Who knows what might happen by me just being me and sharing my life with Christ in a non-threatening way??

As for the rewards, I do not believe we should do stuff to be rewarded… of course… but it is a benefit is it not? I mean we should not be saying, “well, I have a quota today so I can get this amt. of rewards… and anyway, the rewards are more spiritual in nature than physical… but it is a benefit, and God does want us to enjoy the blessings He gives us. And shouldn’t we want to be rewarded heavily in heaven?? Who wants to get to heaven and find out all their efforts went up in smoke?? (check out JB web site on this book “Driven by Eternity” www.johnbevere.org) Who wants to hear, well, you didn’t do much for the kingdom, your reward is small!” NO! I want to hear, “You did much for the Kingdom, great is your reward!!”) So, my goal however is not to share JC with someone just so I get rewarded. What is my heart attitude? I share JC with someone b/c I love everyone and I love Jesus and I deeply desire that they would come to know JC and the awesome relationship they can have with Him!! My motivation needs to be one out of love. Not, “well, if I share JC with Billy Bob then I might get rewarded in heaven.” But, if I do share JC with Billy Bob out of love and the right motives, then what if I get to heaven and am rewarded? That is not a bad deal. I do not want to get to heaven and find out that nothing is waiting for me. JB talks about how some get great rewards and some people get little and some just go up in smoke… and he uses tons of scripture talking about the believer’s judgement time…. You’d just have to read the book to get the full picture, but it is in scripture where it says about a believers judgement and what that sort of looks like.

So, if I have pure motives and just share naturally…. Well, it is not so much about tracts or this or that. And not about a quota…

Well, gotta scoot for now, but these are my thoughts and it is good to share each others views and thoughts etc.

Love ya girl!!!!!!! =D

vir said...

Post number two :)

Em, I just read your second comment again and I must admit I am one of those people who think you sound a bit harsh. Maybe that’s because you are trying really hard to emotionally disconnect yourself by rationalizing the possibilities in your head as to not feel as much emotional pain?

Don’t get me wrong I know you are grieving and hurting but you just sound so logical (almost disconnected) about it and it makes me wonder. Only you can know for sure, all I do know is that the more I read what you have said the more concerned I am for you.

I was wondering why it seems so hard for you to say IF my grandmother knew Jesus she is with Him in Paradise. I don’t want to sound harsh either I have stated my beliefs about heaven and hell and about Gods grace.

But Em, as I read your comments your focus seems to be totally on hell. Did you ever stop to think that about who wants you focused on the possibility of your grandmother dieing without Christ? What does God want you to focus on? Who does it serve to fixate on that one possibility?

As I stated in my post I truly believe we can never know another’s heart only God can and it is not our job to judge. It is important for you to grieve and maybe this is part of the process for you. I would however caution you NOT to focus on your grandmother’s destination.

I have a few suggestions for you (maybe you have already done this) I have lost a lot of people in my life (close to 20 in the last three years). So I share this with you out of my own experience of loosing friends and loved ones, how I have coped with their deaths and allowed myself to grieve.

I must admit I still have a way to go, I still recognize the early stages of grief for many of those I have had to say goodbye to over the last couple years. It seems like I am caught in an emotional time warp I should be further along in the grief process. I believe this delay is most likely because I have not had time to grieve properly due to our constant struggles it’s like I am shell shocked.

Anyway here it goes…

If you can try to focus on Gods grace, the empty place you may feel inside due to your grandmother’s loss, any regret you may have in not having a closer relationship with her, the relief you may feel now that she is gone because her death freed your family from an immense burden. The frustration and hurt and maybe even fear (for her) you are feeling about not knowing for sure about her salvation. These are all natural feelings that you can submit to God in prayer, tears, and conversation with safe people…..

When you your mom and other family members are ready, I encourage you to ask her about what it was like growing up in her family to share funny stories, sad stories whatever she needs to share. This will help her to remember the good things and also help you because it will connect you and your mother in a deeper way and give you a better idea of who your grandmother was as a young mother and wife and get to know her character (if you don’t already) not just the lady who was your grandma. It may also help you develop a better relationship with you mom.

When I worked in the church as a youth minister I saw a lot of people deal with their loss unfortunately, most were stoic and never spoke the loved ones name out loud or talked about them after they were gone. it was like they never existed. Many became embittered and ill.

The younger families that were taught that emotions are healthy who lol and cried at funerals had an old fashioned wake in calibration of there loved ones life They were the ones who dealt with things a lot better.

well I need to run I will write more later.

Love,

Vir

Ann said...

I am going through the same things right now trying to talk to my brother Dan. I have also just read a book by a person who experienced hell- God allowed him to experience it and warn others. It is a very fearful place, yes there is fire and torment and all that, I wish it weren't so but it does go with what the Bible says about "the pit". The book is called "23 Minutes in Hell" and he describes the demons, torture, pain- it is not for the fainthearted.
I have tried not to focus on hell but it does reconvict me. Then there are so many people here who don't believe...and so many in my family, I know and I'm with you Em, most of my family is unbelievers. Fortunately God brought a Christian into the mix besides myself for a while.

How interesting we are all going through this now, not just coincidence.

Ann

vir said...

Post number three.

Crying….

In my narrow minded little opinion people need to keep crying till they are finished and not stuff the tears down like so many of us do. I think most keep crying until the tears are all out which could be weeks, months or maybe even longer. Many things come into play if the person who died was close to you a spouse, a child, a parent, a friend. If they are a distant relative you barely new or an acquaintance it will be different. If you have conflicting relationship with a family member or loved one who dies you may not feel anything due to the wounded-ness in your heart or may go off the deep end ~ I have seen grief gravitate in both directions.

I usually only get a little teary eyes on fathers day and the anniversary of the week of my dad’s death or when something reminds me of him or I accomplish something I know he would have loved to have been a part of. Jane (Jim’s mom) died around the same time three years ago so it’s a bit of a double whammy. For me the day of Jane’s death brings about painful memories it is especially difficult for me because I felt robbed of saying goodbye to her I so desperately wanted to be with her when she passed and I knew it was coming but due to the constant craziness in our lives I couldn’t do that. Many times I have been angry and hurt and have blamed the negligent entities in our situation for robbing me with many friends who died that year (there were 14 that year - 8 of them in a tow week period).

There have been times I think I should have just gone down and stayed at a hotel I wanted too shortly before she died but I couldn’t afford it and after talking to the family and seeing that they were struggling so much I realized how much of a burden I would be to them. I did call her to wish her a Happy Mother’s day the day before it was the last time I spoke with her she must have told me she loved me 6 or 7 times and that she would be visiting Ohio soon. I knew God had another plan after only a ten minute call (she was so weak) I hung up the phone and cried for hour’s almost non stop, she was admitted to on Mother’s Day and died just a few days later.

We can’t go back and change the past God was in it all and I have thanked Him so often for allowing me to go to the memorial and giving Kimmy an opportunity and a desire tto be there with me ~ I could not have made the trip alone. I am also thankful that I was able to have more closure and be available for my dearest friends in their grief even if only in a small way.

When I cry about my dad or a friend who has died it is usually brought on suddenly out of the blue by something that invokes a memory or a milestone. As I have been going through our losses from the house I have found letters and cards that are bitter sweat.

I am reminded of those stupid phone commercials back in the nineties at Christmas time they would just tear me apart.

Description:
Dad calls his daughter about some big milestone event tells her to cross her arms and to give herself a hug from him yadda, yadda. Gosh they were so sappy and I was always soooo embarrassed that I was brought to tears by them!

I know many widows and widowers’ and I have learned through my Mom, Gina’s mom and many others how losing a spouse is incredibly difficult. On many occasion while visiting (or at nursing homes visiting mom when she was in rehab) there homes. The survivor will take you around their house and show you pictures talk about the first day they met when they fell in love talk about being reunited with them again in heaven and how empty their lives feel without them. Sometimes they cry or get a little teary eyed. Even if they remarry they will most likely express their unending love for there first spouse and feelings that no one can replace them. But, life does go on you learn to live without them and sometimes how to live differently but you always miss them and if you don’t go on its sometimes too hard to live I saw the life of a dear friend cut short just three years after losing his wife to cancer.

My mom still grieves for her children on occasion, my brother (Tom) was only three days old my sister (Mary) was miscarried under the worst of circumstances. When mom was in the hospital the last time she had horrible flashbacks of there deaths and had to face things she had shoved down for years. Any parent will tell you whether it was a miscarriage a baby or a grown child that the grief of having a child die is almost unbearable and worse then any other loss. I think parents who have lost children have a deeper understanding of what God must have felt at Christ’s death ~ but even then it falls short because losing a child is far different then giving a child over to suffer and die for the human race.

vir said...

Hey Em

Just checking in holding off on my next post to you since I haven't heard from you I wanted to make sure I didn't beat you up unknowingly in one of my responses. That would so not be cooll let me know K?

Love,

Vir

Anonymous said...

Blogger was not letting me post for eons this week so I emailed ya girl! You did not hurt me.... this blog post stuff is hard to send a comment!!!!!!!!

Luv,

EM :-) <><

vir said...

Post number four.

Hey again Em

I taking advantage of this time to write a few things I need to write about so hope you don’t mind cause your gonna get way more then you bargained for and may get board or confirm your suspicions that I am totally off my gourd!

Ok you keep bringing up challenging conversation! :) Which is ok it's good for me to think although I am a bit rusty and a I have said before I am well aware of the fact that I am so NOT a theologian so its best to look up EVERTHING in the Bible because I can and will get something wrong because my opinions are just that… :)

I think the verse you are referring to about Christ’s descent into hell is in 1 Peter, most have heard reference to this passage in the Apostles creed.

Apostle’s creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, Suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead and buried; He descended into hell. The third day he rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. From there he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, I believe in the holy catholic (means Christian) church, the communion of saints, The forgiveness of sins, The resurrection of the body, And the life everlasting. Amen.

I personally believe Jesus had to descend to fulfill the ransom price for us by suffering and dying in our place for our sin. However, I grew up in a church that thought the idea of Christ descending to hell a blasphemous notion they believed he preached to the dead in Sheol (but did not enter Gehenna) to proclaim His defeat over His adversary Satan.

BTW my former church did not use the above mentioned words sheol etc but I later learned this is what they were refering to.

In the Old Testament the Hebrew word for hell is Sheol which means a place of the dead it was considered a waiting place for the dead both just and unjust. This may be where Catholics came up with the idea of purgatory which is not a topic literally spoken of in the Cannon (Old and New Testaments) but may be mentioned in the Apocrypha?

According to the Old Testament one side of Sheol was Gehenna a place of suffering in torment for the unrighteous; the other side separated by veil, abyss, or partition was for the righteous and may have been called Paradise (I could be wrong about this name). I am reminded of the story of Lazarus and the death of the repentant thief on the cross mentioned in the gospels.

In the New Testament the Greek word for hell is called Hades, Hades is the same word for Sheol translated into Greek and should not be confused with the Greek mythology of the day. Both Sheol and Hades were also words used for death and the grave. When a person died they would also use one of the above mentioned words to say the person had died and was buried. Because of this many theologians disagree as to where Jesus really was in the grave, in Hades in paradise proclaiming his victory, or in Hades in Gehenna suffering on our behalf. This is also why we have so many varying beliefs about what hell is. Have I totally confused you now? :)

Since we are talking about hell again I will give you a bit more info to do research on ~ I do hope you take the time to look up and research as I am a poor teacher and not very reliable!

The word Gehenna is also interchanged in the New Testament referring to the Valley of Hinnom a huge garbage dump that was always on fire and once used by religious sects for idol worship, they also made human sacrifices there. As a result, this burning dump was often referred to as hell but not THE eternal hell. It was also used in symbolism to describe the eternal hell mentioned in the bible so it can get a little confusing. I believe I heard years ago that the Valley of Hinnom was also used to burn the dead not sure if they were pagans, criminals, or the poor we know historically the rich were buried in graves and tombs. So if you really want to understand the many references to hell and decide what you believe in regard to Jesus descent etc. You need to brush up on your Greek and Hebrew a good Strong’s concordance would help ~ they have a few online.

It is interesting to be discussing this because at house church Sunday night we diverted from our scheduled topic in John to discus Romans. Since the deaths of house church Pastors Chad and Mark in May our house church pastor Glen has been thinking a lot about eternal things. After reviewing the scriptures Glen asked questions about what we thought eternity was like and the topic of Sheol came up (from me of course, I like a good discussion ;) We talked about how we really can’t have any earthly idea of what heaven is truly like and shared stories of saying goodbye to loved ones.

I recalled my grandmother’s death she was in a coma after having battled cancer for several years she was dying. I was only 12 or 13 years old and was in her room at the hospital with her along with other family members. It was early evening and my grandmother who had been in a coma for days started speaking, naming her family members who had died before her who were believers. Although I don’t remember much the memories I do have are vivid.

I remember my refusal to leave my grandmother’s side and my parents giving in. I remember my mom saying she new it was time when my grandmother began speaking her relative’s names out loud. The most amazing thing I remember (which I left out at HC- didn’t want to freak them out too much!) was that along with the family and friends gathered in her room I saw a flash of white light hover in the corner of her room briefly (only a few seconds 15-20 maybe less) when it disappeared my grandmother had stopped breathing. I could hear my mother quietly crying and remember a lady from church who had just brought dinner for us quickly rush me outside the room as my mother and uncle were talking about the light. The last thing I remember was our family doctor outside my grandmothers room putting his had on my mothers shoulder with tears in his eyes confirming her death. I have never forgotten the light and the naming of her already dead family members or the compassion of our sweet family doctor.

I also realized after Sunday’s discussion that even though I said I wasn’t sure what I believe about our immediate destination upon death I really do and that is, that I believe we go to a waiting place called Sheol or Hades until Christ’s return. I studied these topics years ago and for me based on scripture it is the most logical conclusion. I’m not sure why I have become so wishy washy on the subject over the last few years.

I encourage you to read the word look up original Hebrew and Greek translations of words of the bible and utilize a Strong’s concordance. It is so important that we try to understand what we truly believe and why and not be guided by others opinions ~ this includes mine! 

Love you,

Vir

Ann said...

I've been reading another book (which, like Virgi says, if it doesn't go with scripture then you disregard) but it does go with and quotes a lot of scripture. It does talk about string theory, other dimensions (10 total), and more. One of the things mentioned was that Christ limited Himself to our dimensions (length, width, height, and to a partial extent time) until he was raised from the dead. At that point he could transcend dimension. This is how he walked through walls. I had already been thinking that is how he walked through walls...but this scientist (Christian astronomer) explained it more fully.
Perhaps after Christ's return we enter more dimensions...? Because we will have bodies that can do this, too.
Or perhaps even before we get new bodies we see other dimensions (the whole Heaven experience, tunnel of light, etc.).
I don't know if hell has other dimensions or not- the book about hell I was reading concurrently seemed to imply it didn't. Many of the demons as well as the people there are trapped.

vir said...

ooo ooo ooo string theory I am salivating with excitement, who is the book by? I read called fingerprint of God by Hugh Ross who is a physicist years ago and it set me on a path of total fun looking into every scientific (and unusual ) mentioned in scripture before it was "discovered" String theory was one of those issues but it has been like 18 years so I will need to brush up on the things i learned so we can talk about it! :) Link to web site:
http://www.reasons.org/about/staff/ross.shtml

Ann said...

Pretty sure this one's also by Ross.

vir said...

Ann,

coolness let me know the name of it k?

vir said...

Ann, I just wanted to respond to your post, I too do not believe you have found yourself dealing with these issues by coincidence God’s timing is perfect. We continue to pray for you and your family, please don’t lose hope I have known many former atheist and agnostics who are now believers and there stories are amazing. As you know I have a very diverse group of friends many who are atheist and agnostic. Some of them read this blog on occasion so this dialog has been a challenge for me at times I don’t want to freak them out! Thankfully my friends know me fairly well I am not in the habit of hitting them over the head with my beliefs although I am not in the habit of hiding my faith either. It would be impossible for me to do this because God is the center of my life, although I admit it’s not always evident. I am who I am believe what I believe and respect the beliefs of others although we may openly have to agree to disagree at times.

My experience with atheist friends who want to discus philosophy, atheism world religions has been interesting and it has opened my eyes to the path they have chosen and why and sometimes has resulted in a change in heart and commitment to Christ. I usually enjoy the discussions with atheists but I have learned that sometimes it is better to listen and pray then to say things that would cause argument. This does not mean I keep all my beliefs to myself, just that I seek God first in prayer and ask Him to lead me and guide me so that I will be respectful to my friends and obedient to Him.

Do you remember telling me about Nathanial being upset a couple of years ago because he had a friend he liked at school who was atheist so he went to your pastor? I thought it was so cool that he did its not easy for a teen to talk to the pastor of a formal church. While I was proud of Nathanial I remember being furious with the pastor when you told me he gave your son a copy of the four spiritual laws to share with his atheist friend. I know your minister meant well but I personally believe him to be a bit disconnected to the world, to hand out a track as a solution for Nathanial just didn’t make since to me. Without a supernatural leading from God tracks are wasted on atheists because they don’t believe in God Satan Heaven or Hell.

So I personal think talking an atheist with a track or about Heaven Hell God or Satan rarely works. I guarantee you almost every atheist person who reads the stream of thought thinks were a bunch of freaks with a rare brain cell between us. They don’t understand the immediate desire upon becoiming a christian that comes upon us to shout to the world God is real and He loves you. They have not experienced the supernatural forces at work. I always try to explain it like falling head over heals in love; you want to tell everyone how incredible your lover is ~ that’s the closest thing I can come up with to explain it yet it falls very short of the real deal.

There are so many things that confuse me about atheist, I heard the story of a guy years ago who converted to Christianity, said he had spent years of his life being angry at a God he didn’t believe in. Reading every new age and spiritual book he could find except for the Bible. He even became a Buddhist because he could “fill the hunger in his soul” without having to believe in God only it back fired it did not fill his soul.

If I remember his story correctly he was talking to a Christian friend and spouting off about how stupid and uneducated Christians were (must have made his friend feel really loved and respected huh – ah tolerance the one way street for everything PC believed in…:) and ranted on about their ignorance. I guess he started misquoting bible stories and verses and taking them out of context.

During the conversation his friend challenge him by asking if he had ever really studied the Christian faith of the bible and he avoided the question saying his grandmother took him to church when he visited her and his family sometimes went to Mass on Christmas and Easter so he knew all about religion. Gave all the reasons for religion like feel good theories ways to make money and control people the crusades and so on.

He said when he went home he realized he had never read the bible and that the only scriptures and stories he did know about the bible were all quotes from an atheist publication he subscribed too. A few months or years passed and he couldn’t get the conversation out of his head so he decided he would read the bible and prove to himself and everyone else he was right and they were wrong. He found himself more curious after reading the bible so he went to a Christian book store and found a book called Evidence Demands a Verdict by Josh Mc Dowell and gave his life to Christ. He stated he had never before experienced so much peace in his life and that he now felt complete. I wish I remember more of the story it was pretty cool. Here is a link to Josh’s site. http://www.josh.org/apologetics/

Reading the Huge Ross book Fingerprint of God was a great experience for me and it is written in a way almost everyone can understand it. Although, as you continue to delve into quantum physics and the more complex issues of string theory it can get a little tough to understand.

I remember getting into a conversation way over my head with a budding scientist (wanted to be an astrophysicists) who planned to go to MIT. Wow was that interesting I held on for over an hour (yeah me – or should I say yeah HS!) understanding everything then it totally went down hill as he became more obnoxious about what he knew and was on a quest to stump me which is so not hard to do! He was trying to decide if he was atheist or agnostics “only stupid people believe in a Christian God”. lOl Now I just avoid the conversations it would be fun to talk about the theories again although, I would like to point out I know nothing and have not read up on it in a good 12-14 years!

Anyway I am just babbling its good you’re reading the books I encourage you to keep reading and to continue processing what you believe and why and of course pray. Then when the conversations come up (and they will) you will know what to say or be able to be honest and say you have not figured it out. I cannot imagine what it is to be in your shoes please know, that we are always praying for you and your family and I know God has placed others in your life that do this as well.

I want to give you a couple more links for your potential reading list in case you are interested.
A Case for Christ http://www.leestrobel.com/

Also check out The Real Face of Atheism By: Ravi Zacharias http://www.rzim.org/
I have not read this book but I heard it was good many years ago.

:) vir